Bringing Consumers Along on the Sustainability Journey

(inspirational music) - So I'm joined by four wonderful panelists today to talk us through bringing consumers along on the sustainability journey. So please give a warm welcome to Mark Boyd-Boland, partner at L.E.K. Consulting, Mark Hyde, Chief Data Officer at Trainline. Marija Rompani, director of Sustainability and Ethics at John Lewis Partnership, and Niki Shilling, Chief Impact Officer at Rituals Cosmetics. Thank you all (audience applauding) for joining us today, and we're actually kicking off our session with an exciting presentation from Mark.

He's going to be giving us a five minute overview of some exciting research that he's published or that he's conducted with his team at L.E.K. They've just completed their 2024 Consumer Sustainability Survey, and Mark will be running us through some of those key findings, before jumping into the discussion. So, Mark, take it away.

- Sorry, do-si-do. Well, thanks Dina. The topic today is really bringing consumers on the sustainability journey. And I guess our survey is trying to bring a lens to where consumers see themselves on that journey.

And I'm sure the panel will then explore some topics which suggests that maybe what consumers say and what consumers are currently prepared to do or are currently prepared to pay, maybe aren't perfectly perfectly in line. But as Dina mentioned, we have just recently conducted, again, a survey that looks at consumer attitudes towards sustainability. How interested or motivated are consumers in the topic of sustainability and how is that starting to translate into some of the behaviors and choices that they're making from a shopping perspective? We've done that quite broadly and quite globally this year.

But I'm gonna spend most of the session talking about the UK consumers, just to ground us a little bit more in how they're thinking about it. And that does have the benefit of building on a survey, a similar survey that we did a couple of years ago. So we have a bit of a view about how, you know, UK consumers are really starting to evolve in their thinking about sustainability. So we started the survey by asking consumers how important sustainability was to them personally.

And the data here does reveal that consumers pretty consistently say that sustainability is important to them. It weights a little bit higher in younger demographics, which I think we can probably all understand. It is probably quite natural from a generational perspective in terms of how younger consumers might be thinking about the world versus some older age groups. But very strong sentiment, quite consistently, across age groups and, and building over time.

But what does sustainability mean to consumers? We presented consumers with a version of the UN SDGs and asked consumers to really reflect on what sustainability meant to them against those SDGs. And I think what this does start to demonstrate is that consumers still have quite a narrow understanding of what sustainability is. It's very weighted in environmental aspects with much less focus on social.

Some of the social scores are starting to trend a bit higher, but generally speaking it really does weight to environmental and some of the social aspects lower down the spectrum and relatively limited engagement around some of the governance things that we more holistically think of when we think about sustainability. We then asked consumers to help us understand where sustainability was starting to play through in their daily lives. And we looked at that in three broad buckets in terms of everyday behaviors, in terms of shopping behaviors and in terms of transport. And I think the panel does represent different aspects of that consumer journey and we'll come on to discuss that in a bit more detail.

UK, thinking about the UK consumer, there's very high participation in some of the everyday changes. That's thinking about reduced energy consumption at the home, that's participating in in household recycling, that's being quite vigilant about the use of single use plastics. And I think a lot of that reflects the political and the PR and the sort of media journey that we've been on as a UK community. That's a bit less the case in some international markets, particularly in the US.

Some of those metrics run a bit lower. In shopping behaviors though, the UK is more in the middle. So UK consumers are starting to think about the materials of what they buy. They're starting to think about re-commerce, but markets like the US seem more developed in some of those areas.

And I think that's both a scale point, it's a maturity of business model. It's the nature of the opportunity, but I think as you start to play things through, it points towards a direction of travel where you could imagine UK consumers becoming more aware and more reflective about some of these choices and alternatives that are available in terms of how they shop. And from a transport perspective, it's sort of muted good news I think, for those who are in the transportation sector. And I've got a couple of more specific slides coming up where I'll cover that off.

But what I think is really important about sustainability is sort of where it sits in the hierarchy of consumer decision making. So we asked across a broad set of categories, we asked about health and beauty, we asked about food and beverage, we asked about clothing and apparel. We asked consumers to really help us understand where sustainability sat as a purchase criteria in that hierarchy of things they thought about when they were in the grocery store or the department store or shopping online. And what is clear across all of those categories is that sustainability isn't yet at the point of being one of those sort of defining table stakes, qualifying purchasing criteria, purchasing criteria is still very much from a consumer mindset about price.

It's about product quality, it's about value for money, it's about durability and functionality, but sustainability sits in that next category of criteria that is still quite important to consumers but not really guiding their behavior in quite the same way as some of those other points. It's more in the suite of things where consumers are thinking about what's the service proposition, what are the sort of nice to have elements. So it can be persuasive but isn't quite as determinative as as some of those other criteria. What I think it does do though, is create an opportunity for brands and for retailers to start to think about how they can shape and change their sustainability messaging to try and draw some broader engagement from consumers around some of their sustainability actions.

And then here we are at the point where I think what consumers say they'll do and what consumers do, do. Really starts to see some disparity. So we ask consumers and ask them to answer in good faith, you know, the extent to which they are already changing what they buy in the department store or in the grocery store towards sustainability alternatives and whether they'd be prepared to pay more. And these numbers I think are higher than many of us would experience if we were to segment the market based on brands that were clearly sustainable versus not sustainable.

They read high. And I think that is a reflection of the fact that consumers have a strong intent to probably be more responsible and do more in this area, but they probably aren't backing that up in action. But if we look at the relative values here, I think it does then show a different prioritization around the areas where consumers are more thoughtful about sustainability. And that's particularly in things that I might consume, things that I might apply to my face.

So in the beauty context, things that I might feed to my pet perhaps by extension, the things that I might feed to my baby, it's not as immediately following through in what I might put are on my body from a clothing perspective. It's not really translating into, you know, how I think about furniture that I might buy or how I might otherwise purchase items for my home. So it's sort of shrouded it, sustainability becomes more important when you think about the individual and the person and the sort type of contact that I'm going to have with product. But what do sustainability-led choices lead us towards?

We ask then if your consumers are thinking about sustainability, what are they looking for cues in relation to? And at the top of that list are packaging related questions. So it's very much, is the packaging that the product is being released in recyclable or to what extent has it been made from recycled product, et cetera, et cetera. In the middle band though there's sort of increasing interest in things like repair.

So reducing the frequency of new purchase and the opportunity to extend the useful life of items. There's an opportunity around sort of refill and consumers openness and willingness to consider refill and you see a lot of that in sort of beauty and cosmetics in particular. And the list goes on. So for brands and for retailers there is quite a broad suite of things that consumers are looking for.

And I think we'll probably come on to explore in a bit more detail how brands and retailers can start to communicate and engage with consumers around some of those dynamics. But I promised a couple of slides on transport and here they are. So in the first instance we asked consumers how they were starting to think about changing their daily transport behaviors. And across our UK sample, about a quarter of consumers or a quarter of households said that they were starting to moderate some of their daily transport behaviors for sustainability reasons.

And that was particularly in favor of walking and cycling and particularly at the expense of car usage, be that personal cars or or taxis. And clearly that sort of paints opportunities for those who are sort of more broadly exposed to public transport systems and how we can start to influence consumer behavior in terms of everyday transport. More broadly, we ask consumers then about their leisure holidays and what factors were starting to shape choices they made about how to go on holiday and to a lesser extent where to go. And then we asked them to look forward and think about areas of behavior that might change a little bit going forward.

The reads on both of those two things were quite consistent. It's clear that consumers are deliberating about the importance of flight and the role that flight might have in their own personal carbon emissions count, if you like. And that might translate into, "I'm flying slightly shorter distances rather than going on sort of long haul holidays." But I think in particularly to Mike and and his business, which we'll hear more about in a moment, sort of obvious consideration here about broader transport choices.

So is there a role for, you know, train in the mix of how I go on holiday, should I be taking public transport? Should I be taking bus? Should I be traveling to Europe via ferry? And doesn't that, sustainability sort of plays into that, but I think as we'll come on to talk about in a moment, it can also be amplifying some of the other benefits back to that.

So purchase criteria, to what extent is it only about sustainability or also just helping consumers understand that it is both a convenient, affordable, and sustainable choice.

- Great, thank you so much, Mark.

- Thank you. (audience applauding) - I think that set us up really well for our discussion. And as you mentioned, we will be touching on a lot of these points throughout. Niki and Marija, I'd like to come to you first 'cause I think you have a particular position which is quite interesting in that you are both sustainability leaders, you are leading the initiatives in your companies, but at the end of the day you are also consumers.

So perhaps a bit of a cheeky question is around how you kind of reconcile your roles as sustainability leaders with your role as a consumer and how do you kind of implement changes to be more sustainable in your personal life, based on all of the information that you have and what kind of these factors could be what we focus on when we're trying to bring that message to the general consumer base. I don't know. Yeah, which one of you want to go first? You wanna go first?

Go for it, Niki.

- Well, I've learned to look at data and everything that I use personally because, you know, there's a lot of talk about whether train or short flights are better or you know, heat pumps versus solar and, you know, all these things. And also in business, you know, when we make packaging choices, you know, plastic versus glass and all these things. So actually what I've learned is to look at data, like lifecycle analysis is on everything. So every product we replace with a different packaging or with a different ingredient, we always do a lifecycle analysis.

And that actually helps us a lot because you know, everyone says this is the newest and this is the best and this is the way to go. But then actually when you look at the lifecycle analysis, you realize actually no it's not true. If you, for example, use a plastic bag more often than a paper bag, the plastic bag is a lot better than the paper bag, for example, you know, just as an example. So this is how I apply sustainability in my life and make choices based on that.

- Sure. And Marija, what about you? Is it a similar picture?

- No, so I've been working sustainability over 20 years. If you ask me, you know, if I saw on a label a thousand tons of carbon or a thousand kilo, you know, what does it mean? I dunno what it means. The way I shop in from what I know about, you know, both environmental and social challenges, whether that's in consumer goods, whether that's in retail, whether that's food, grocery or fashion or beauty, et cetera.

I mean I have a lot of knowledge because I've been working in this. So I am particularly looking at, if I'm buying for food, to me it's hugely important first of all that I don't waste food. I visited Waitrose Foundation farms in Africa, plantations where we grow radishes and spring onions. And trust me, I never look at radishes again in the same way, I don't throw away any food because when you see people in Africa growing that food, and I never, I dunno, for some reason I imagine it could be to be completely different.

So first of all, I don't waste any food, so therefore I shop carefully. To me, animal welfare is important. So If your chicken costs three pounds, then you need to ask yourself, how is that possible? If you think about it, to grow a chicken, slaughter it pack it, distribute, et cetera, for three pounds, someone, somewhere down the line, there's a paradigm of cheap food.

And I think, and to me, I look at the price. Third, I need to trust the company that I'm buying from. You know, when we buy furniture like a big sofa, then you're gonna scan a code and understand where it's come from and you know, if it's cheap, it's probably not gonna last long, but food is more personal, right? And then you need to want to understand really where is that food grown.

I don't want children to grow to grow cocoa basically in the chocolate that I eat. So to me it's important that I trust the company. And I think when we ask our customers, you know, you have to look at holistically, do I trust this business to do the right thing for me? Because if I'm buying a can of beans, I'm not gonna have time to look at the labels.

So labels in some cases are really useful. So eggs is a perfect example. You know now we have to label eggs, but are they caged eggs, you know, free range eggs, organic eggs, barn eggs, right? So that really works.

So the labeling, and that has to be very simple and very easily understood, which is not the case with carbon, for example. And even if you say carbon emissions from the steak, okay, you know, more intensive production, is less carbon intensive.

- Hm mm? So if you grow your animals in a more natural way, you're likely to have, but then if you grow intensively, then what about nature loss, water pollution, et cetera, et cetera. So I have a slightly different view, but then again, I've been working in sustainability for over 20 years and I know how things are made from my experience (chuckles) working in consumer goods and retail and banks, sure.

- So I think you've touched upon two things that I want to get onto later in the discussion around kind of information sharing and trust amongst consumers. But before that, Mike, I just wanted to get to you with a data related question, because we heard from Mark that consumers do care about sustainability, they do want to be better, and apparently they are making those changes, but often with consumer surveys in particular, there is kind of a gap between kind of disclosed or claimed behavior and behavior in practice. So I'm wondering, based on the data, are you seeing a general appetite for consumer change to be more, consumer decision making to become more sustainable, or are people saying that they're doing things but not following through?

- Yeah, it's a fascinating question and something that we think about and look at all the time. At Trainline, you know, sustainability is really core to our mission. If you take a journey by train, you know, you are using about two thirds less carbon than if you fly on that same journey or if you drive in a petrol car. So the difference is really material.

And when we survey our users, we do see a growing interest in sustainability and a growing motivation that people talk about, especially, you know, in the younger demographics as you mentioned. But there does seem to still be quite a material perception to reality gap because when we ask people what are the most important things they can do in their lives, how would you change your life to make a contribution to reducing your own carbon footprint? The things at the top of the list that people think are the most important things they can do, are actually quite a long way from reality. So at

the top you get things like, I should recycle more or I should change the electricity supply of my household and so on. These are like in the top two or three, but in reality they're not really in the top 50 for the average household. And changing the way you travel is a much bigger impact that that is in the top five for most people and most households. And so we've been deliberately trying to do things to bridge that gap and try and create the association between the way you travel and knowing that that does actually make a difference to your own personal carbon footprint.

We've done a few things. We've launched a sort of a top line branding campaign last year, called, "I Came By Train," which was the idea of that is a non-branded campaign. So Trainline started it, but it's not a branded as a Trainline thing because we're trying to turn this into a broader movement of other businesses and groups to come with us and champion this thing. We're trying to take the debate a little bit away from, you know, you might have heard the term like flight shaming into the opposite, which is train bragging, you know, being proud to have come by train.

'Cause we want to create pride and a motivational feeling that there is something you can do about it. And then a more micro level we're building, we're using a lot of our data science work to build a lot of personalized individual reporting and messaging into the app at the point of decision making. So we're starting to show people, "Oh, this is how much you'll save if you pick this journey and this is how much you have saved with your previous behavior." So we're trying to link people's personal behavior choices to their carbon impact.

And this is a big project, right? This is a long-term journey. I think as probably we all know, creating a large long-term shift in population behaviors is a big project. It takes a lot of time, but we are seeing a few green shoots at the moment.

Just recently we've started to see the beginnings of people that interact with these kind of features in our app also then go on to buy slightly more train tickets. So there seems to be the beginnings of this correlation, which I think is exciting and it feels a bit like, you know, it feels a bit like a moment where we're on this journey together and we we're just sort of getting to the point where really back to the top of the question, there's enough of a point of view and an opinion and a desire to take action on this stuff that we're starting to see, signs like data-driven evidence that behavior is gradually changing.

But I definitely think that we're in the early stages of this. Like we're in no way done. I think we're in the foothills of the mountain.

- Great, and I think you've led me on quite nicely to my next question, which is still focused around information, but Marija and Niki I'm wondering how, when it comes to consumer goods, I mean Mark and Mike have both mentioned that people tend to focus on things like reusable packaging and recycling rather than things kind of earlier on in the value chain, which might have a much larger impact on the climate. And I'm wondering how you engage with your consumers to inform them of kind of the factors that really do contribute to kind of the impact of their choices and how you're engaging with them and encouraging them to make better decisions that way.

Niki, maybe if we start with you.

- Yeah, I think there's a lot of things you could communicate. So we choose to really focus and make it very concrete. For us, one what we're focusing on is refills, because we've measured through lifecycle analysis that refills is the product really that, you know, helps reduce carbon the most within the beauty industry. You know, beauty is all about, you know, beautiful, luxurious single use containers and there's 30 milliliter in it.

And when you throw that, there's a lot of packaging which is hard to make recyclable. So if you start refilling it with these sort of really thin, you know, literally no packaging cups, then you can reduce a lot of waste water and also carbon. So we choose to focus completely on our refill movement and we do that in two ways. One is if you're in front of the shelf, you see the information, what it does if you buy a refill, right, how much reduction it delivers to you.

And at the same time, we also encourage it through the a campaign that we're running since three years actually, which is that when you buy a refill, we grow one tree. And you know, like that we also hope to encourage consumers to feel better about their choice, because they've taken the choice, but they also realize that the company behind it is taking, you know, a choice to really encourage that. And then we have a tree tracker behind our cash desk and on the website so that we're really, you know, doubling up on efforts so that consumer are happy to take that choice and feel good about it.

- Hm mm, and Marija, is it similar in your world, food, clothes, homeware?

- Probably not of yet. We're taking different approaches, depending what we are talking about. I think for Rituals, yes, it makes sense, reusable. for Waitrose, for example, there's so many different products and you know, the customer marketing teams are telling me we can't communicate everything, choose what you want.

So we need to be very focused on what we want to communicate. And in Waitrose we first of all take a holistic view so we have a food to feel good about, which basically is saying, you know, you will feel good about, you know, this food because we take care of how this food is sourced and who is producing this food and how it's grown and transport, et cetera. And also what does it do to your health because, you know, let's not forget, I mean food is making people very unhealthy. So that's an example of a holistic approach.

It's food isn't just about taste. There's so much more to it, you know, and actually the nutritional value of food, it also depends on how you grow that food and how the animals are grown, whether they're outside or whether they're in a cage. So that's one example of food to feel good about. And then if I take an example from John Lewis, we would for example, talk about where our cotton is sourced from or we would use the codes, the scanning codes that you can scan a product and it'll tell you where the material is sourced from, where is the product manufactured.

It'll tell you probably something around how to wash it, how to recycle it, or whether it's recyclable. So there are different, you can either focus on, you know, digital passports, which is the scanning code, or you can have a more holistic approach, or you can, you can really do the labels. You can say this chicken is higher animal welfare. And we have an example when we actually changed our chicken to higher animal welfare, we sold more.

But you know, interestingly enough, when we did a trial and removed all of the packaging from our essential fresh produce, we sold less. So it's that customer behavior. And I can see some really interesting questions there. One for you.

Yeah, I quite like that one. (panelists laughing) But it's so I guess, but I think fundamentally you need to trust the business that you're choosing to shop from, and to me personally, that's it. And John Lewis and Rachel, we have the trust of customers, the people trust us to do the right thing for them. So there's even more pressure on us.

We can't engage in green washing, we can't engage in these kind of discussions that are, you know, we have to support we everything we do with integrity and data. And this is so important to us.

- Absolutely, and- - Can I- - Yes?

- Let's build on one thing in terms of how we communicate with our customers with data? There's what, just like in addition to the sort of the specific labels and information at the point of purchase, one thing that we found to be really powerful over the last year, is this idea of like telling a personal story back to people, laying back your own personal behavior to people is such a powerful thing. 'Cause it's not a label, it's you, it's just you. So I dunno if anyone uses Spotify, you know, at the end of the year you get Spotify wrapped.

Yeah, everyone loves to share their Spotify drive. So we did our spin on that this year and did your year in trains and you had a nice little email that was like, here was your favorite station that you went to. And it was all quite fun and lighthearted, but it was all but in there there was a serious message which is like, this is how much CO2 you've saved this year by avoiding other forms of transport. And we found a real, and people really picked that up.

It was shared across social media and you know, it created a moment of conversation around it, I think, which was, which we thought was quite interesting.

- And Mark, there is a question for you about trust, which is actually what I wanted to come to you about. 'Cause as consumers we are constantly exposed to more and more products that say they're eco-friendly or fair trade or some other kind of environmental or social designation. But how do consumers know what to trust? And if you've got a long reputation, that's obviously different, but when you don't have that, what can businesses do if they are doing the right thing to help their consumers kind of trust what they're doing and kind of bring the disillusioned, skeptical, mistrusting consumer onboard on the sustainability journey?

- Yeah, it's a really good question, and the question in particular asks about sort of sources of insight and sources that build that build that trust. And I agree completely with Marija's point that it does start with the business and sort of that the authenticity with which they're able to talk to their consumers and then deliver that through in action. And I could have talked for an hour and 20 minutes about the survey if you'd let me, (chuckles) but one of the questions we did ask was specifically on this sort of sources of information. Now, you know, consumers did suggest in that survey that they were reading some science journals.

I'm not sure there's too many consumers, you know, deeply engaging in science journals. But towards the top of that list were friends and family, which this question sort of probes at and a sense that that's a personal recommendation, that's a personal vindication that comes from people who maybe share your same philosophy or your same ethos. Consumers are looking at, you know, with, you know, if you take John Lewis, I think consumer recognition of what that brand is and what it stands for is very high for smaller brands. Things like B Corp really matter in the way that they describe who they are and demonstrate their conviction in some of these directions.

But singularly in that survey, the single one biggest thing that consumers were looking at was the packaging. And that's not just the material of the packaging, it's the messaging that packaging is conveying and that also needs to be authentic and real. But I think it is, I think we've moved, consumers have moved beyond, you know, a green leaf on the packaging is sufficient to demonstrate I'm natural or you know, environmentally friendly. It's about starting to present some of that branding thought, which sometimes can come through in clean labels and sort of less is more from a packaging perspective, but it really is that there is an important role for the package on the shelf both in terms of standing out and demonstrating those company values.

- And one thing related to, well somewhat related in that consumers care about the packaging of a product, but I think ultimately, I mean cost is one of the biggest things that consumers are looking at when it comes to which products to buy. So Mike, I'm wondering from your data, kind of is cost playing out to be the most important thing as Mark's survey showed? And if so, what can companies do to bring down the cost of sustainable products to make sure that they're as inclusive to as wide an audience, as wide a consumer base as possible?

- Yeah - Like regardless of their financial situation.

- Yes, yes. Does cost matter? Yes, for sure. Of course cost matters a lot. And it is something that as Trainline, we're a reseller of train tickets.

We don't set the price of the train tickets, but we resell it. But we do do a lot of work on top of that to try and find the best possible price for people. So we are highly motivated to try and bring the price down by doing all sorts of data science stuff on top. Typically if you buy a train ticket on Trainline, you save about a third versus the walkup cost of the ticket machine through a combination of things like the split save thing, rail cards, buying in advance, these sorts of things.

But we've gone a step further recently and to answer the address the question as well, on the screen that it's true. I mean we recognize as well that sometimes train isn't the cheapest. I mean that frustrates us as well. And one of the things we've done recently is we've analyzed every combination of origin and destination pairs.

Every possible journey you could make between two stations everywhere in the UK and everywhere in Europe. And we've compared that with the cost and the time taken to travel by driving and by flying. And what you find is it's a mixed bag. It's not the same.

Of course there are plenty of examples where train is expensive, it's true, but there's also examples where the opposite is true. So there's thousands of routes in the UK where not only do you save two thirds of the carbon, but it's also cheaper and quicker. So one of the experiments we're running at the moment, and you might see this if you start searching for train tickets now, is we are branding these things "Super Routes." So we're trying to again, elevate this into something that the consumer can latch onto.

So a super route is where it's lower carbon and quicker and cheaper. So we're trying to sort of elevate this in an experiment with ways of bringing that to people so that they can latch onto it. And our basic strategy is to answer the question about government lobbying. It's sort of two sides.

This data set allows us to do two things. It's like where the train is a better choice, we are pushing this to consumers. I think it's really important as you think about how do we achieve behavioral change, that you start to think about hearts and minds. You know, we've talked a lot about doing the right thing, which is critical, but if you really want to get a lot of people to do the right thing, you might also need to appeal to their pockets and other logical, you know, considerations they have as well.

So we're trying to win the hearts and minds of the user and achieve consumer change and where the opposite is true, where we're seeing routes that are more expensive by train and they're not as convenient. Those are the sets that we're sharing back with the rail industry and with governments around Europe to try and say, look, are there opportunity to change the way you design the service here, either the way the network is designed or the pricing points or what have you. 'Cause yeah, there are at the other end of that spectrum then for sure there's work to be done if you want to encourage more people to use those railroads.

- Absolutely. And just my final question before we open up for more questions is, it seems from our panel that we are all facing similar challenges and we are all ultimately trying to bridge that gap between the aspirations of consumers to be more sustainable and their ability to do it in practice. But given that we are all kind of working towards that shared goal and are facing huge challenges, I'm wondering what the role of collaboration is amongst and within industries when it comes to trying to bring consumers along on the journey. And are you, as businesses collaborating with partners but also competitors to try and come up with solutions to these issues?

And if you can provide some examples of those, Marija, I mean Niki, both of you're nodding...

- Fine, I'll go first. Yes, of course collaboration is key. I mean, you know, we talk a lot about consumers, but I don't think that businesses should deflect their responsibilities onto consumers. I think we have responsibility to do the right thing and we have responsibility to give choice to consumers who can make informed choices.

And we have to make those products, that more sustainable products affordable and available. So at the partnership that's exactly what we are doing. We are constantly trying to make all of our products more sustainable so that actually you don't have to think too much or read labels. I mean, you know, people spend seconds on reading labels, you know, no one really goes deep into it.

So collaboration is absolutely key. I think what what we also need work on is pre-competitive collaboration. So with WWF basket for example, that we are member of, we are working with other retailers on how to, you know, how to move the retailers in the right direction or reduce social environmental impact. We are also working with, you know, with other NGOs on different nature products.

We are working a lot with our suppliers, with our farmers. So it's absolutely key. We need the businesses, we need, you know, suppliers, we need the government, you know, we are clearly lobbying, well, trying to influence the government to have clear labeling for animal welfare. We know we need to eat less meat, but we need to eat better meat, it's better for our health, it's better for the planet.

So we are huge champions of of having clarity and information, but we need some consistency, you know, if we do our own and then Tesco, Sainsbury's, do something else, then how, it's just going to be confusing. So we need consistency and we have seen that some retailers try to do the carbon labeling, it's just too expensive, it's data intense. People don't really understand it. So that's where we need to collaborate and have consistency so that you can compare apples for apples and it's not just about carbon, there's a lot about nature as well.

You know, we have to start thinking more about nature and the impact on nature. So absolutely key.

- Well it's great to hear that you are starting or businesses are starting to think about that and that's something to be optimistic about, but just conscious of time. So keen to take some questions from the audience. I know some have come through- - Yeah.

- But if there's anyone who wants to share - A question, I have that collaboration question.

- Yes. First question comes in, just to underscore. Yeah I think it's, it's a great example that actually large scale change is probably bigger than any one company. So yes, one, so I point back to the initiative I mentioned at the start the, "I Came by Train"-thing, it started as a campaign, but we're trying to turn, we're deliberately trying to turn into exactly that across business movement.

So we had a big event in our office last week and had lots of different companies come together and organizations, government representatives, industry and competitors as well, other online travel companies, which I may or may or not mention now, but they were very welcome into our office. So we are trying to build this like coalition towards it. Ultimately if we're gonna stay on track for our net zero commitments in the UK, we need to get 30% more people onto rail from other forms of transport by 2035, which is a big number and we need a lot of people to do it. So I welcome all of you to come and come and join us in this.

We're we're partnering with like events companies and sporting events and all sorts of things to try and turn this into more of a sort of a campaigning platform as opposed to just a sort of a single company going at it.

- And I can actually answer two of these questions- - Go for it! (chuckles) - With my, the answer of how we corporate and that's B Corp, you know B Corp is a, I think we should all kind of go behind more the existing sustainability certifications, which have proven really successful and really holistic and we're, we are a B Corp and, and within B Corp are 60 I think, I don't know the total number, but a lot of companies who are very serious about using their business as a force for good. So I think, you know, while we at the same time also with the beauty industry are working on a sort of like the same labeling that food has from A to D you know, the beauty industry also wants to do that.

But I think, you know, let's all go behind what's existing because then the consumers understand, you know, "B Corp, aha, that means you're a sustainable business." Because the problem is when we all do our own thing, then, you know, it's again for the consumers impossible to understand what's what's actually happening, you know, and what they should be should be buying. And then also, behavior in front of the shelves, you know, if you know there's there's B Corp, then you don't have to, you know, when you have that on your products or in a shelf, then you don't have to question anymore. You

can just fully trust and buy- - All the B corp.

- B Corp is quite difficult for big businesses. It's, well- - We're a big business, it's possible. (all chuckling) - You can hush it out. Takes a lot of effort.

That's what makes B Corp special.

- Yeah.

- You know, it's because when you finally achieve it, it's taken us- - We are big promoters of B Corp. Every year in, in the Waitrose we have a B Corp kind of- - Yeah.

- Front of shelves.

- You can do it.

- Yeah, go for it.

- No, and even- - Well maybe, yes, go for it, in the blue.

- [Attendee]

Sorry. Well I have a big voice. Well what I found interesting, and it's a question for all of them, but it is addressing one of the points about the presentation that we had at the beginning. The thing that we started noticing in some of those results, especially for the lower ones, and I think it's like kinda a comment that has still been untouched, is that the things that to, based on this survey and in general just from empirical knowledge, consumers seem to care the most about is things that can be profitable for them, things that can save money for them.

So when you see the things about the charts that are, where like what are the things that they're prioritizing the most like engaging in, is like reducing the electricity consumption in their house, doing this or that. But not thing thinking like reducing my meat usage, reducing my mar my dairy usage, which is one of the main contributors of carbon emissions in the world and also animal cruelty, all of those things. So do you think, more than just a precise question. I would like to know your opinion on adopting more, like what you would call what some people call punitive measures for consumers to get on board on sustainability.

Not just for their self-interest, but also for things that do not necessarily align with their preferences and their choices. Like, you know, they like meat, they like cheese, they like all of these things. And you know, on top of that, what do you think of the proposed regulations on consumers for example in the fashion industry? And I know that Rituals is not fashion, but it's still kind of beauty industry, on limitation on consumerism.

- I dunno if anyone has a quick answer?

- Well I have, I think I have a quick answer in a sense. I mean if it's all about, you know, consuming less, then I think the answer is I don't think as a business we can ask anyone to consume less, but we can ask everyone to consume better. So I think it's about making conscious choices and that's where I'm again, a B Corp advocate. But you know, it's about how, you know, make branding the awareness and I think as retailers and as brands, we all have to, you know, again, get together and educate consumers and I think that's the most important.

- Yeah, I agree. I'd say it's hard to generalize, 'cause I do think different cases need different responses. But if I do try and generalize, I do think that what we need to do is create quite large scale population behavior shift over a long period of time. And my personal belief having worked in that space, 'cause before Trainline I was, I ran data science at Facebook for like five years in London and that was all about trying to get people to do things (chuckles) using data, click on things like...

You are not going to force people to change their behaviors in my view, at scale. you will get some people to do so, who care very passionately about a thing. But if you want to get large scale populational behavioral change, you've gotta incentivize people to do that. And so my firm belief is that the right pragmatic approach to that over the next decade or so is a combination of things that you do need to dial up, education.

We do need to solve this perception reality gap that I spoke about earlier. But I don't think like direct punitive measures is gonna bring about the result that we want even if the result is the right result. I just think pragmatically the way to do it, having studied user behavioral change over a long period of time is you've gotta find that sweet spot between heart and mind where you're trying to get people to shift as one. I just think that is the, sadly perhaps, you may argue, the limit of human nature, let's get a bit philosophical.

- Yeah, I agree. I think just to come back to the survey for a moment, I think that, yeah, saving home energy, I mean that's sort of has a natural sort of an immediate, you know, return on investment for the homeowner. Recycling is widely available and relatively low cost. It doesn't necessarily save you money.

But these things from a supply side perspective, and because we have been trained a little bit in the UK to understand the benefits of these things we do participate in it becomes harder where availability, access, cost of participation become barriers. But I think that, you know, as the panel has said, I think the answer does become in engagement in education. It's very hard to imagine that we all have carbon calculators that dictate, you know, what we can buy in the grocery store or not. It is about and giving people the information and the power to start to make responsible and good choices.

I guess it- - I thought it was very interesting. It reminds me of something I thought it was very interesting about 2016, 2015 when Tesla first started to go mainstream with electric cars and it was quite radical at the time 'cause no one had really been able to achieve that sort of mainstream adoption of electric cars at the time. And you know, I recognize that what they've done isn't necessarily all of the answers. But I think it's interesting in this particular aspect because when they launched it, the headline on all their marketing materials was not, "This is a zero emissions car."

They said, this is the fastest car that you can buy and the safest, and then if you keep reading down, they go, oh, and by the way, that there's no CO2 emissions at the exhaust pipe. And I just, I remember at the time thinking, wow, that's so interesting 'cause I would've intuitively written that the other way round and yet they didn't, and achieved, you know, a lot of adoption as a result. So I think it's worth considering how you balance those two effects of what is actually the right thing to do from a sustainability impact and how you actually just, you know, in a, in a traditional marketing product way, like get people to do the thing you want them to do, essentially.

- Great. Well thank you very much for your time. We've run over a bit, but thank you all for your questions and I'm sure you can find our panelists over a drink. So thank you.

(audience applauding) - Thank you. (inspirational music)