Navigating the Shifting Landscape of Sports Fandom, Media Rights and Fan Engagement

Announcer:
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Jeff Kaloski:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. Today we will explore the forces reshaping the world of sports media and fan engagement with exclusive insights from LEK Consulting. I'm Jeff Koloski, a partner in our media and entertainment practice. And today we're diving into one of the most dynamic periods in modern sports. From shifting fan behaviors to the explosive growth of women's sports, and from the rise of streaming to the unraveling of traditional media models. The sports landscape is in flux and the implications are big for leagues, media companies, investors and brands alike. So here's what we'll the current state of sports fandom and how different sports are being affected by the changing media landscape how fans are consuming sports content in new and surprising ways, the disruption of local and national media rights, the drivers behind growing enthusiasm for women's sports, the current status quo in soccer, and how MLS is faring relative to international leagues.

Jeff Kaloski:
Joining me to break it all down are Jeff McQueen and Alex Evans, leaders in LEK's sports practice and experts on where the industry is heading next. So why don't I throw it over to you guys so you can introduce yourselves?

Jeff McQueen:
Thanks, Jeff. Hi. This is Alex Evans. I'm a partner with LEK Consulting and along with my colleague Jeff McQueen, lead our sports and live entertainment practice where we work with leaders across the sports industry, from leagues to teams to investors to service providers to everyone within the broader sports ecosystem. So really excited for this conversation today. Jeff, do you want to introduce yourself?

Alex Evans:
Yeah. Thanks, Alex. So I'm Jeff McQueen, also a partner based out of Los Angeles, and, you know, along with Alex, work on all of the areas that he mentioned. And I think we've got a lot of really interesting topics to dive into today. So let's do it.

Voice Over Recording:
Great.

Jeff Koloski:
Thank you. I'm really looking forward to this. So let's start with what is the current state of sports fandom in the US.

Geoff McQueen:
U.S. yeah, it's really interesting, Jeff, because we've been doing this sports survey now for five years, so we do have some longitudinal data. And when we look at overall sports fandom, where it came out in our survey, about 28% avid professional and collegiate sports fans, about 19% casual fans. And that's generally been pretty consistent year to year. Certainly the last time we did it about 14 months ago, it's, it's right in line. And then we look back further historically and it's generally about the, the same. Where we do see some interesting trends is in some of the, the makeup of that and, and we'll, we'll get into that in a bit. But we also asked about some of the leagues and where is most of fandom there and here, unsurprisingly, the NFL is the clear leader in avid fans, followed by, you know, the next tier of sports, which is MLB, NCAA football and the NBA.

Geoff McQueen:
I think when we've shared this with clients, I think the surprise that everybody notes is how high MLB is. It's really the number two sport which at the national level it doesn't have quite the same cultural resonance as the NBA, but at the local level it remains really strong. And so as we think about how fandom has trended overall, we are seeing kind of flat year to year, but there are changes. We're seeing increases in avidity among the 18 to 29 age group and the 30, 39 age group also among women. We think this, you know, aligns well with a lot of the, the growing interest in women's sports where we see those groups, you know, over-index in their interest there. And indeed, when we look at the big winners in the sports leagues over the last year in terms of fandom gains, you know, it's, it's the WNBA, it's the EPL, it's formula one with WNBA being the biggest. And, and based on our fan incidents, you know, they've added over, you know, two and a half million avid fans just, you know, over the last year. And we think that's largely due to, due to Caitlyn Caitlin Clark.

Geoff McQueen:
She's got just a tremendous awareness and appeal. Beyond the core fan base of the WNBA has brought a lot of new fans to the game, evidenced by the, you know, record breaking attendance and TV ratings. And then we also, you know, looked at the who are the losers who are losing fans. And I think the big ones that stuck out in this year's survey was NCAA men's basketball and NCAA football, which saw, you know, meaningful declines year over year, you know, over a percentage point inhabit fan incidents. And we think a lot of that is likely due to, you know, one conference realignment, just, you know, creating haves and have nots, maybe turning off a segment of the population and then also the transfer portal and the nil rules where you have less, you know, year to year continuity in terms of the team and the players that may just be, you know, turning off those, those avid fans at the margins and leading to some declines. We also looked at just the younger, younger fans in particular and there you know, again we see winners and losers. You know, MLB, NCAA football and PGA kind of materially under index among the, you know, the under 30 group versus 30 plus. And on the flip side, you know, NBA, UFC, EPL and women's basketball, both the WNBA and collegiate do really well.

Geoff McQueen:
You know the NFL does under index a bit on that under 30 but they're still the number one sport among that age group by a pretty significant margin. Right. If you think about the under 30 avid fan, you know the difference between the NFL and the NBA is about the same as the NBA and MLB. And so that just, you know, highlights the strength of the NFL's just broad based offering and deep fan base.

Jeff Koloski:
Really, really interesting. What about how audiences are consuming sports? Did any interesting insights come through?

Geoff McQueen:
Yeah, I think when we look at kind of that age dynamic here again the under 40 sports fans consume more sports content in a given week than fans over 40, but they're consuming it in a much different way. There's much less emphasis on the live sports content itself. Only about 25% of their sports media consumption is live sports versus 60% for 60 plus. And instead they're spending more of their time consuming sports video games which is things like Madden and FC but also branded experience and experiences in Roblox. And then they're also spending a lot of time on social media, TikTok, Instagram and, and YouTube for highlights and user generated content. So we to kind of double click into this, we, we looked into, you know, the value of full games versus highlights and found really there are, you know, a couple dimensions here that, that that segment the fans. The first is going to be the age group under 40 versus over 40. Generally prefers, generally expresses a higher preference for, for just watching highlights or, or you know, primarily highlights versus full games.

Geoff McQueen:
And then the second dimension is the sport itself. So fans will generally watch full games of the NFL, of NCAA football and, and those types of sports. Whereas for MLS, NHL and UFC there's just a higher propensity for, for fans to rely on highlights to follow those sports. And so you've got kind of those two dimensions where you know, younger fans tend to prefer highlights and, and then games like football tend to capture more full Game viewership.

Jeff Koloski:
Yeah, I would obviously think this has implications for the long term value of the media rights for live sports content. And you also have or we've seen quite a bit of movement in the national sports rights landscape as streamers have gotten more aggressive. You think about what Netflix and Amazon and others are doing here, Alex, what are you seeing?

Alex Evans:
Yes, Jeff, you're absolutely right. The media rights marketplace has been really robust. If you look at national sports rights, they've been growing at about 9% annually over the past 10 to 15 years as leagues have really captured an increased share of consumer spending on TV and streaming. So if you look at what's been driving that from a league perspective, a lot of that is NFL, NBA and college football. But the rising tide has been lifting all boats. As you mentioned, Jeff, the digital platforms of streamers like YouTube, Amazon, Netflix are increasingly showing interest in life sports content and have been creating a more competitive bidding environment. So more bidders for a finite set of rights tends to drive the rights value upwards. However, there have been relative winners and losers.

Alex Evans:
Looking at the MLB as it's become increasing regionalized, as Geoff McQueen mentioned, the national rights for regular season games have become a little bit less valuable or perceived to be less valuable, limiting their increases in annual deal values in the last round of rights negotiations as well as ESPN even opting out of their Sunday Night Baseball agreement. If you look at college football, the Big Ten has really been the big winner. They've interestingly gone for six to seven year agreements which has allowed them to continue to drive annual deal values upward with more frequent bites at the apple. Their current deal is 1.15 billion per year versus 440 million in the prior round. You look in comparison to the SEC, arguably just as prestigious. They've signed a 20 year deal back in 2014 and then a separate 10 year deal in 2024. But because of that, they're not able to drive uplift in rights values as frequently as the Big Ten has been able to. They've seen really nice increases in their rights values too, going from 55 million on CPS to 300 million on their most recent ESPN, ABC deal.

Alex Evans:
But if you look at their overall conference media rights package, it's still below that of the Big Ten, about 700 million. And it'll be that way for the foresee, foreseeable future.

Jeff Koloski:
Really, really interesting. Thank you. I guess. I curious to understand if there are any other dynamics at play that have helped sports command such a dramatic increase in rights fees and your view on how likely this is to continue?

Alex Evans:
Yeah, Jeff, we think it's likely to continue. If you look at what's been driving this, why sports has been able to command these rights increases. Sports has been key to holding the pay TV ecosystem together, and sports are incredibly valuable to the legacy media companies. But we are seeing some cracks in that as viewership migrates to streaming platforms. And then streaming platforms are building out their advertising tools and targeting capabilities. And so linear TV advertising, which is been underwriting sports and has been incredibly resilient despite some of the pressures on pay tv, is expected to decrease in the next five years as the spend continues to migrate to streaming connected TV platforms. But at the same time, with the shift towards ad supported subscriptions, streaming platforms will become more aggressive bidders for sports rights in the next three to five years. As sports content drives viewership that's largely incremental to descriptive entertainment.

Alex Evans:
Viewership streamers will look to use live sports to acquire new subscribers, to retain existing subscribers, and to increase their monetization of subscribers through these more enhanced advertising platforms. And so as we look at sports rights, it's interesting. A number of the marquee properties are locked up for the time being, but there are a few that are coming up for bid. It'll be really interesting to watch. So we think of examples like UFC, MLB and even the NFL may have an early opt out. UFC in particular is going to be really fascinating. ESPN currently holds the rights. They're in a period of negotiation that's open negotiation right now.

Alex Evans:
And ESPN, according to our research, 40% of the ESPN subscriber base is avid or casual UFC fan. And ESPN is looking to launch a streaming service. So ESPN has a lot of motivations to retain ufc, but UFC is looking for very substantial rights increases. So we'll see how that plays out. MLB is also a really interesting negotiation to watch. It'll be interesting to see who ends up with Sunday night's baseball. The package that ESPN opted out of. Does ESPN come back for a lower rights fee or does a new partner emerge? To be determined.

Alex Evans:
But that will be again, interesting to watch.

Jeff Koloski:
Oh, thank you. How about we shift gears a little bit? Geoff, any thoughts on how local sports media rights are being disrupted?

Geoff McQueen:
Yeah, how much time do you have, Jeff? There's, there's a lot going on here, so I think we can, we can hit on a lot of different dynamics. But you know, local rights, they're a huge revenue driver for, for local teams in mlb, NBA and to and to a lesser extent the NHL and traditional RSNs. You know, you go back five, 10 years, they've been kind of in this long term secular decline. Everybody's acknowledged it, noted it, and five years ago it was in. Five years ago it'll be gone and it's still here. But the end is in sight. You can kind of see the economics starting to really be challenged over the next five years with the main street sports bankruptcy. You've got others kind of exiting the market.

Geoff McQueen:
So it's really this melting ice cube. And so teams need to prepare for a post RSN world. And there are have and have nots, right? Like the Yankees with yes network will be fine. The Dodgers with their $335 million per year local meteorites deal with spectrum. That's not going anywhere. And so you've really got these, these have and have nots. But teams are going to have to figure out what else can we do. And it puts monetization and reach into, into kind of direct conflict and tension with each other.

Geoff McQueen:
And so teams are really pursuing several different strategies. First we're seeing them kind of stay with their existing RSNs accepting a lower rights fee and just kind of keeping the status quo moving forward. It's less revenue than before, but it's still pretty good. It's guaranteed. But you've got to then deal with that declining reach and kind of the long term fan development issue. And then the other alternative, if you don't stay with the rsn, there are really a couple of things you can do. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive. You can do a combination.

Geoff McQueen:
The first is to partner with a local over the air channel. So here the team will broadcast and sell the TV ads. This results in variable revenue. Basically whatever you can sell in terms of sponsorship and marketing is the revenue associated with it. And so it's not a fixed fee. And now it's much more dependent on team performance. So if you think your team's going to do great and you invest in players and then on the back half of the year it kind of goes in the tank, you're going to realize a lot less revenue than you might have expected. On the flip side, you do get broader reach but less monetization.

Geoff McQueen:
And I think a couple examples here to point out. For the NBA, you've got the Jazz and the Suns that have done this for a couple years now and they saw pretty material increases at least in year one in viewership, partially due to the increased reach. I think the Suns, they were up almost 100%. Part of that was probably the acquisition of Kevin Durant. That drove a lot of that viewership, but certainly the distribution helped them reach that audience. The Jazz, on the other hand, saw a big increase in the first year. They were run over the air and they basically gave away all of the viewership gains in the, in the second year as it declined, you know, 50% as the, as the team performance really was challenged. And when you look at the monetization and kind of the figures that they've put out publicly, you know, the Jazz had about a $35 million RSN deal and they think they've reported that their media rights revenue is down 50%.

Geoff McQueen:
The Suns were closer to 13 to 15 million and they're down 25%. So that's a pretty meaningful gap for teams that are looking to monetize their local rights. So if you've got the local OTA viewership, you can do that. I think another alternative is to go direct to distributor. And here it's interesting. The Rangers I think are the best case to talk about. They've developed the Rangers Sports network, which conveniently the acronym is RSN and it's basically a part time RSN. They have cut out the middleman, cut out the bally sports middleman, sucked out all those legacy costs and only operate the network part time, pregame, in game, post game.

Geoff McQueen:
And they've cut direct deals with distributors. So there are kind of those guaranteed payments, that distribution and so they're able to broadcast games that way. And I think that is kind of an interesting middle ground. They've also done, the Rangers have also done a combination of that RSN direct to distributor approach along with a local over the air partnership. Well, they'll broadcast, I think it's like 10 to 15 games over the course of the season on Fridays. So you're kind of getting that reach with a little bit more monetization, which I think is kind of an interesting strategy moving forward. And then the last one that gets, I think a lot of press is direct to consumer, hey, just launch a direct to consumer offering. Sign up subscribers, get people to pay you directly.

Geoff McQueen:
It's a lot harder than it sounds. And there are white label providers out there that can help teams do this. But you know, for the most teams that offer this, it's basically a rounding error. There aren't any real subscribers. Very few people are willing to pay 20 to $25 a month for an MLB team's in market games. I think it can play a role, but it certainly can't be the driver.

Jeff Koloski:
Right.

Geoff McQueen:
And so if you just look at like the Padres, for example, their RSN averages about 50,000 viewers or it did back in, I think 2023, which is the last year even if you can converted 50,000 people to a paid subscription, you know, at 200 bucks for the season, like that's $10 million. That's, that's not a huge number in the MLB local media rights and there are a tremendous number of haircuts you can do before that even gets, you know, as it gets much smaller. So it's just, it's really not feasible long term. And it, it kind of creates this fandom death spiral where, you know, fewer people have access to the games, which means there are fewer fans, which means fewer people are willing to pay, which means you need to raise the price. And it just kind of spirals from there. So I think there's some real challenges with direct to consumer. And I think, you know, the, the leagues have, have made some, some mention about centralizing it or you know, you know, doing in market streaming and, and finding a partner. I think there may be a path forward there, but you've got to, I think, think through a number of different things because I think ultimately if it comes down to like an a la carte payment for in market games, even if you pair it with the out of market games, right.

Geoff McQueen:
If you park, you know, MLB TV out of market games, plus the local in market games, I just, I don't think you're going to get the subscriber base that, that you think you are. Leagues need to think really carefully about how they approach that.

Jeff Koloski:
Yeah. Wow. Really insightful. The landscape for local sports rights, it's, it's clearly shifting. It's a sign of how quickly traditional models are giving way to flexible, direct approaches. And that kind of disruption isn't just happening in how people watch sports. We're also seeing it impact what they watch. One of the biggest stories in the industry right now is the rapid rise of women's sports.

Jeff Koloski:
With growing fan interest, bigger media deals, and rising star power, women's leagues are getting more attention and investment than ever before. So what's behind this momentum? Can it continue and what does it mean for the future of the sports industry? Alex, do you want to share some thoughts?

Alex Evans:
Yeah. Thanks, Jeff. Women's sports are on fire. Women's sports have been getting a lot of attention and there's just been a flood of good news recently. WNBA, NWSL, NCAA, Women's basketball all have seen really nice increases in their sports rights deals. You see team sales like Angel City FC and NWSL you know, sell for record breaking amount 250 million. Caitlin Clark has been driving WNBA to record levels of attendance and ratings. And just a couple of weeks ago, MLB announced its investment in the Athletes Unlimited Softball league, really adding fuel to the growth of professional women's softball.

Alex Evans:
So again, a real flood of positive developments. We see in our survey work a lot of interest in women's sports, particularly among your younger fans and women, which is a really favorable demographic tailwind that can help propel women's sports more broadly over the longer term. We asked fans why they're interested in women's sports, what's driving this interest, and the reasons that rose to the top were high level quality of play, the presence of strong female role models, and just being a sports fan more generally. And it was interesting that the women we surveyed were much more likely than men to cite the strong female role models and supporting equal opportunities for women as motivators for their interest. Men were more likely to cite the high quality of play and being a sports fan more generally. If you look at some of the barriers to fandom in women's sports, somewhere around familiarity with the athletes and teams, there's some perception of a lower level of play. This was more among the male respondents and then just a general lack of local teams to support. But if you think about these reasons, the familiarity with the athletes and the lack of local teams to support these will likely diminish over time as women's sports grow and expand, become more mainstream, more franchises are launched.

Alex Evans:
So we expect again that tailwind of fan growth to continue. We asked sports fans about their intent to watch women's sports over the next 12 months, and avid sports fans and fans under 40 expected pretty strong growth in their viewership of women's sports going forward. Basketball and soccer have probably had the most press among women's sports over the past couple of years, but there are others that we could see growing as well. As I mentioned, MLB's investment AUSL could really bring softball to a bigger stage. There's also an active pro scene in women's volleyball and there are three active leagues competing today. If you think about the large base of women volleyball participants and a competitive NCAA scene, women's volleyball is a sport to watch. And there are some reasons to believe that that will occupy a much bigger stage going forward as well. So we're bullish.

Alex Evans:
We really like the outlook for women's sports.

Jeff Koloski:
Thanks, Alex. I'd love to unpack soccer a little bit further. Jeff is our resident soccer fanatic. How's MLS doing in the US I.

Geoff McQueen:
Don't know if I'd call myself the resident soccer fanatic, but, you know, pro soccer fandom is, it's interesting. It has a really interesting shape. So we found in the survey is that fandom of pro soccer is actually highest among 30 to 39 year olds. And fandom among 18 to 29 is actually about the same as 40 to 49. And so it creates this, you know, interesting shape where sports, you know, pro soccer fandom is peaking in that 30 to 39 group. And we thought this was interesting because, right, you think about that group, when they came of age, you know, 15, 20 years ago, it would, you know, the way they would watch soccer would be to go to a bar, watch the EPL on Saturday morning. And it really, we think, created this, you know, community and emotional connection to the league and teams. Whereas when the 18 to 29 group came up, soccer content was generally pretty readily available.

Geoff McQueen:
You could get it on streaming services, it was on broadcast tv, you had more MLS. And so it wasn't like you had to go to the bar on Saturday morning to watch, you know, the Tottenham Hotspur. Right? So it's just a different dynamic. And we think that may have actually impacted some of the fandom development around pro soccer. And just as they've had to compete harder for attention span against, you know, not just other sports, but Also, you know, TikTok, YouTube, etc. Among that 18 to 29 group. So, you know, when we think about that, the question if 18 to 29 fandom is actually lower than 30 to 39 among the age groups, is there another wave of interest to boost soccer more generally and MLS specifically, or is it really just is what it is at this point? And so I think that's TBD. But MLS has a lot riding on a successful World cup next year and it's really hoping it can drive a meaningful increase in fandom.

Geoff McQueen:
But then that also has the question of even if you drive that increase in fandom, are you able to capitalize on it and make it sustainable in the long term? And I think as we think back to some of the rights discussions earlier about reach, you think about MLS season pass and the reach it has there and how it's kind of paywalled on Apple TV, which is a service that, you know, has some great content but no one actually watches. When you look at the overall minutes viewed, I think it's a challenge. And so I think we can dig into that in a little bit more detail. But you know, I think MLS, you know, has, has, has placed a lot of chips in the center on the success of the World Cup. And so then, you know, in our survey we wanted to do is unpack. Where does MLS sit in kind of the hierarchy of, of U.S. soccer among U.S. soccer fans? And they do have the most avid and casual fans, but the EPL actually has the most avid fans.

Geoff McQueen:
We think this ties into the 30 to 39 year old age group dynamic that we mentioned above, where just like that community and that emotional connection creates more avidity and just makes it easier to stay engaged and you've kind of got other fans that you can bond with and drives that engagement. When you look at avid soccer fans, the EPL is actually the most preferred league. We asked about EPL, Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga and MLS. And the EPL was the most preferred league among avid soccer fans. So about 47% cited EPL versus 32% for MLS and 21% for the other international leagues. However, among casual fans, it's another story here. 55% prefer MLS versus 45% for international. And so we asked them why MLS.

Geoff McQueen:
When we asked why MLS fans prefer MLS versus the international leagues, they really cited the ability to support local teams, the affordability of the product, MLS star power like Messi. Whereas when we asked the EPL fans, you know, why do you prefer the EPL to MLS? It was really about these, you know, kind of the long history of the league. It was the higher quality of play, global star power, prestigious clubs, long standing rivalries. You kind of have all of those factors that you can't really build up in the short term and just take time. And so we think that's, that's really the challenge for MLS there, I guess.

Jeff Koloski:
So the question I'll pose is, do you think MLS could become the number one league in the US?

Geoff McQueen:
It's possible, but it's certainly not guaranteed. I don't think they've done themselves any favors with fan development and the Apple TV deal. As kind of mentioned before, they haven't disclosed subscriber numbers since the initial announcement of about 2 million in 2023. But our survey suggests that that number hasn't grown much, if at all. And you factor in, right. They got the messy bump. You know, what happens if Messi goes to another league or retires? Like what happens to viewership then? And what will that do? I think that's another story. And then couple just.

Geoff McQueen:
We also asked non-subscribers, right. Like, is this something you're going to be interested in subscribing to in the future? You know, asking this about, you know, pro soccer fans. And generally there was pretty limited interest in subscribing. So if you're not already a subscriber, there's just, there's not a lot of additional people out there that are, you know, clamoring for the MLS season pass. And so we think it's going to, you know, MLS is going to struggle to build out a meaningful audience. And, you know, by being out of sight, out of mind, they, they risk, you know, kind of impacting their overall fan base development, which is a long term challenge. You can see this in the MLS cup ratings on linear tv. It's not, you know, it's not perfect because the linear TV system is eroding and it doesn't necessarily align very particularly well with the MLS fandom.

Geoff McQueen:
But just the year to year data. In 2022, MLS cup drew about one and a half million viewers to the English broadcast. Then they went on Apple TV and in 2023, that viewership dropped to 800,000 in 2023 and dropped to less than 500,000 in 2024. So that's a pretty steep drop off that I think would tie back to that. Out of sight, out of mind. And the lack of fan development and engagement.

Jeff Koloski:
Gosh, you're saying there's a chance, but it's a steep uphill climb. We've covered a lot. Clearly an exciting time in the world of sports. A lot is shifting and shifting quickly. What haven't we covered? What else should we chat about?

Alex Evans:
Yeah, Jeff, one thing I wanted to mention is just the growing private equity interest in sports. I'm talking not just about ownership of team franchises, which has been pretty common, but thinking more broadly about investing in the sports ecosystem. Many of our private equity clients are interested and active in sports investing. They see a lot of favorable tailwinds. Many of the things we've been talking about, including just the growing flow of rights, fees and advertising and sponsorship dollars into the sports ecosystem, the enduring strength and depth of fan engagement, the insulation from cyclicality and things like tariffs, the scarcity value of certain assets, and just the scalable growth of a number of emerging tech platforms, all of which can underpin a sports investment thesis. Where are these private equity firms investing? What are the types of things they're looking at? Things that we've been seeing are sports technology and analytics platforms, sports marketing agencies, venue management companies, emerging leagues and youth sports operators, to name a few. Again, a very interesting active area for us and one sort of something worth watching.

Jeff Koloski:
Geoff, anything you'd like to add?

Geoff McQueen:
No, I think Alex covered it. Maybe just, you know, put a point of emphasis on youth sports that's probably its own podcast in and of itself as that market just kind of continues to attract interest and continues to mature as youth sports professionalizes. And so there could be, you know, I think there's opportunities for private equity. There's probably also opportunities for sports leagues to, you know, consider a more holistic youth sports engagement strategy and how they can use that as a fan development tool to maybe offset some of the challenges that we talked about earlier with reach and monetization of content. So I think there's a lot of interesting activity going on here and it's a really interesting time to be in the space.

Jeff Koloski:
Thanks, Jeff. That wraps our discussion on the 2025 LEK sports fan viewership and Attendance Survey as helpful. We're happy to provide more detailed discussions on request, and we invite you to connect with us to learn more about LEK Consulting's extensive experience in providing strategic support to businesses and investors across the media and sports landscape, including on any and all the topics that we touched on today. So I want to thank Jeff and Alex for a really insightful, engaging, an exciting conversation today. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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